Redefining Confidence: A Conversation with Lisa Sun, CEO of Gravitas
You know, you write the book you most need to read yourself. If I could go back in time in sort of of like a Back to the Future time machine and give my 22 year old self my own book, I would have really enjoyed the 11 years that I climbed the corporate ladder at McKinsey Moore because I was an insecure overachiever who beat myself up, blamed myself, tied all of my self worth to the metrics given to me by the corporate environment. But if I could go back and self soothe that 22 year old person, I would have said, we don't have to fake it. Let's do the work. Let's realize how much we're bringing to the table, not in an arrogant way, but in a way that means I don't need to tie how good I feel about myself to how others see me.
Danielle Sprouls:Welcome to Unscripted Pivots, a podcast that celebrates the unexpected turns in our lives, sometimes uninvited, but typically redirecting us towards better paths. Today, we have a woman that embodies this message. Lisa's son is a visionary entrepreneur at the helm of Gravitas, a brand empowering women. With the Gravitas brand, Lisa has been transforming the fashion industry by introducing pioneering strategies for size inclusive apparel and creative style solutions that rejuvenate women from the inside out. Her collection garnered the attention of global media giants, earning features in prestigious publications such as o, the Oprah Magazine, People, and the Today Show, all within the same month.
Danielle Sprouls:The influence of her work has extended far and wide as it has been recognized on influential platforms like CNN and in renowned publications like Forbes, Fast Company, New York Magazine, Elle, Marie Claire, In style, and many more. Before launching Gravitas, Lisa's son honed her experience and expertise during an impressive 11 year tenure at McKinsey and Company. During her time there, she served as a trusted adviser to some of the world's foremost luxury and beauty brands, spanning continents from North America and Asia to Europe and Latin America. However, it was only after receiving advice from her boss at McKinsey and Company, who recommended she develop more gravitas, that Lisa pivoted towards this true calling. That's right.
Danielle Sprouls:What started out as an uncomfortable review from her boss has blossomed into her thriving brand, and she is a gift to all women who cross her path. Lisa now shares her insights and experiences, and the driving force behind Gravitas is this transformative mission with the world in her new book, Gravitas, The 8 Strengths That Redefine Confidence. In this thought provoking and practical guide, Lisa has cracked the code to help women build their own self worth on their terms. She debunks the narrow view of confidence that society has imposed, redefining it as an inclusive construct that combines several innate strengths. With her guidance, you can discover your unique, quote unquote, confidence language and tap into the wellspring of your self belief.
Danielle Sprouls:Armed with these tools, you'll be empowered to flex your other strengths and shatter your own expectations. Welcome, Lisa, to Unscripted Pivots.
Lisa Sun:Thank you so much for having me, Danielle.
Danielle Sprouls:Oh, I can't thank you enough. You know, for everybody out there, quick story. The way that I encountered Lisa was I was attending a business conference in San Diego. And I was there, you know, running solo for the first time with a new company that I had just joined, and I really didn't know too much about it. But what I did notice was there were women armed with bags coming down the, escalator.
Danielle Sprouls:And I thought, okay, I need a break from this because, you know, walking around unknown. And I went up there, because I was like, oh, you have to go see Gravitas, Gravitas. Lisa's son's up there. And I was new to this conference, so I didn't know about her pop up shops. And I'm wearing a burgundy dress.
Danielle Sprouls:And I walk in and I'm looking around and she lovingly points out that I had a split in the back of my dress, located right by the rear end, mind you. And this cranberry dress had like a white built in slip. So it was like you literally could not miss that this split was down the back of my rear end. And no one had told me as I was walking around for a couple of hours that I was because nobody knew me, right? So who's gonna go out and point that?
Danielle Sprouls:And she lovingly did that. And so began my relationship with Lisa because what I was compelled to do at the time was get an outfit ASAP. And I didn't want to, because at the time, I was a couple sizes larger than I had ever been and I wasn't in shopping mode. And most women can appreciate that when we're at the height of our weight. We don't wanna go out and buy things for ourselves.
Danielle Sprouls:And Lisa had such an impact on me because she embraced me in just a natural, loving way where, immediately, I felt seen, valued, saved, and elevated. That's how I would describe it. And you got me all dressed up. I felt beautiful, not only on the outside, but on the inside. And I walked away so impacted by our encounter that you always stayed in my heart.
Danielle Sprouls:And when I recently saw that you wrote a book, I couldn't get to that fast enough, and I reached out to you. So welcome, welcome, Lisa.
Lisa Sun:Oh, well, Danielle, and and I'm so happy that that made an impact on you. I also appreciate that you walk the talk of lifting others up and and you walk the talk of sisterhood because when the book came out, I posted my book tour, and you said, I am there. I will be at the Irvine, California, Barnes and Noble spectrum, and you were there in the front row with your friend and just cheering me on. So it's a really a full circle moment. I was happy to help another woman out when they have a split up their dress, but you also have supported me on this journey.
Lisa Sun:Thank you so much.
Danielle Sprouls:Yeah. Let's just briefly talk about that experience because I really think it embodies, like, what what it is, that you're trying to bring to the table about positivity and and inclusivity when when we talk about getting dressed as a woman. You are known or I've heard you referred to as the dress whisperer. Right? And and your closets that you have at these, pop up shops I don't know what it looks like if you have a real one in New York in a in a big factory.
Danielle Sprouls:I'm not really sure. I've never been, although I would like to visit for sure. There are no mirrors in that dressing room.
Lisa Sun:Yeah. So I have been various sizes in my life. I've been a size 22, I've been a size 8, a 12, a 14. You know, I very much understand what it's like to be a product of the eighties nineties, where we were conditioned around what I would say is like a toxic found joy when I realized that it doesn't matter what size you are. Size is just a number.
Lisa Sun:Look good where you are in the journey. Don't delay happiness. I One of the things I write about my book is, a lot of people say, I'll be happy when I'll be happy when I lose £10. I'll be happy. And by the way, once you lose those £10, then you think you need to lose another £10.
Lisa Sun:Right? It's never over. And what I try to help women do, and I do for myself, is be happy where you are in the moment. Let's meet you in the moment and give you the confidence you need in this moment. So the pop up you described, we call it the confidence closet, because I do believe the dressing room is analogy for how most of us take on the day.
Lisa Sun:Every woman, doesn't matter who they are, walks into a dressing room with me with self loathing. I'm gonna lose £10 Lisa. I hate my arms. I hate this. I hate this.
Lisa Sun:They walk in with a deficit mindset, a negative feeling about themselves. And the reason I don't allow mirrors inside a dressing room is I call that systemic bias. As soon as you see yourself semi nude, you don't feel like trying on clothes. It triggers all the negativity you have. And as I did with you for 5 to 10 minutes before I even dress you or bring you product, I ask you what your greatest accomplishment is in the last year.
Lisa Sun:I ask you what you're the best at. I have you tell me stories that change the chemistry of the room. By the way, most women don't want to do it. They're super impatient, just like you were when I met you. And I'm like, what do you do for a living?
Lisa Sun:Tell me about how cool your job is. And I'm a velvet knight. You you don't even feel it happening. I start dressing you while you're telling you the stories, and we're laughing and smiling. And inevitably, everyone comes out of the dressing room.
Lisa Sun:We do allow mirrors on the outside. And they say, this is a skinny mirror. I'm like, nope, it's from Bed, Bath and Beyond. Rest in peace, Bed, Bath and Beyond, but it's 19.95. We can't afford the expensive mirrors around here.
Lisa Sun:And they said, what did you do? And I said, you had to channel the right mindset. You had to make a choice. You had to bring a positive energy to this experience. I'm a dress whisperer.
Lisa Sun:Let me do the work. And I that has been the foundation of the work we do around confidence is confidence is not a behavior, it's a choice and a mindset before it becomes a behavior. And I learned that whether it's in boardrooms or dressing rooms, that when we channel the right mindset, we open up a solution space for us to get what we want in life. And that's that's why I'm really passionate about those confidence closets, because when we meet a woman at her most vulnerable point, it's when she is semi nude in a dressing room with me. That's when you're the most vulnerable.
Lisa Sun:And if I can give you a deep sense of self and I think when we met the first time, I was like, wow. You are so powerful. I love what you're doing. You know, we I think that's why we felt that connection, but that's what I give to women. Right?
Lisa Sun:Is I meet them at their most vulnerable point.
Danielle Sprouls:You absolutely do. And, you know, one of the things that I think, generally speaking, that women, myself included at times, suffer from is the inability to see how far we've come. You know, in your book, you describe how, you know, we're always so over focused on the summit that we're not looking at the accomplishments that we've made along the way. And that is so important. And the same thing, being semi nude and getting addressed, we're looking at the things that we want to fix and not the wonderful things that we have.
Danielle Sprouls:Like, where is the gratitude? Right? We have to remind ourselves that, you know, all that we do have instead of focusing on what we don't. I don't know where that deficit mindset comes from, but your book, lovingly and easily brings us to center. Right?
Danielle Sprouls:I love how you list, the, you know, the 8 what do you call it?
Lisa Sun:The 8 strengths. But, you know, I will say something, Danielle. We're born fully self confident.
Danielle Sprouls:Mhmm.
Lisa Sun:Right? We're born fully self confident. If you could go back and meet your 5 year old self again, that 5 year old version of yourself believed in herself, saw the best in herself, saw only potential and not what's missing. And I always say it's not our fault. Between the ages of 8 12, which are adolescents Mhmm.
Lisa Sun:There are 6 forces that work against us. They are the basis of the inner critic. And that's where even systemic bias reinforces, especially for women. I had a question yesterday at an event where someone said, so you're saying between the ages of 8 12 is when we start to lose our confidence. I said, yes, setbacks, disappointments.
Lisa Sun:We start to underestimate our own abilities. We start to, tie our self worth to external validation. Right? There's all these things that happen. And that's chapter 2 of my book.
Lisa Sun:And someone said, but why is it that boys and girls face that at the same time between 8 12, and yet girls suffer more coming out of it? And I said, well, that is systemic bias. Okay? That is because the systems were created by men for men. And so at 12, you know, the boy who's oh, don't worry, he's just a boy.
Lisa Sun:Let him run and scream and, you know, he's gonna beat up things. Girl, you sit here, you be quiet, you act like a lady, you're perfect. Right? You're forced into perfection. And I said, that is systemic bias.
Danielle Sprouls:It's so true.
Lisa Sun:Every woman carries that with her. And that's why I felt so passionate about rewriting the rules of it.
Danielle Sprouls:I loved examining it, and I was a little not confused, but more surprised by what I was finding out about myself. So much so that after I did the checklist, I thought I wanted to revisit the questions to see if I didn't circle enough of the things. I said, oh my gosh. What does this tell me about me? And I don't wanna go, wait a minute.
Danielle Sprouls:I might have missed a few, you know? And really for me, I'm gonna I mean, this book, I'll tell you what I love here. This is what this one looks like is because we will do a video. I love, love, love, but what I really well, how I experienced your book though, Lisa, is on Audible. I'm an Audible girl.
Danielle Sprouls:I love to listen, especially if the author is the one that's speaking. If they're not, I'm not so down with it. But literally, you have traveled with me. You were just in Phoenix the other day. Even though you're on your own book tour, you know, you go with us on Audible to all these amazing places and even intimate moments, you know, where you're just, like, kinda walking around in nature to have that reflective time.
Danielle Sprouls:There's Lisa in my ear, and she's, you know, she's just reminding me, you know, where my confidence lies. I love, love this book. I highly recommend it. It will be in the show notes. But, you know, you give a test in here and I was looking at my results and where I came out strongest was believing.
Danielle Sprouls:And when I saw that, I was like, well, wait a minute. Does that mean I'm really gullible? Like, you know, like, I literally had to be like, well, don't I wanna be achieving? And, you know, it is so interesting when you're breaking it down and what you go on to even examine in here is not only, like, the strengths that are unique to individual people, but then, you know, how they can be counterbalanced, like, how they can work against you and then constructive ways that they can work for you. What made you want to re examine how confidence was defined in the world?
Lisa Sun:Yeah. And, and, and Danielle, it ties back to where we started, which is we're so focused not of what makes you uniquely you. And if you think about confidence in the world, when someone tells you to be more confident, you think it's a behavior. Stand on the stage, be outspoken, be assertive. Mostly framed by male views of this topic.
Lisa Sun:And so if you look it up in the dictionary, confidence has nothing to do with performance, bravado, or swagger. It's an understanding and appreciation of your own abilities. Something a 5 year old can do, but we as adults struggle with. And we did a 1,000 person quantitative study, along with 32 focus groups. And what we discovered is confidence doesn't just come in one form, it comes in 8.
Lisa Sun:And there are 8 strengths that underpin our self belief. The 8 are leading, I'm in charge, I set direction, I inspire fellowship. Performing, it's what we're doing, extroversion, charisma, the exchange of energy between 2 people. Those 2 are the most commonly written about when it comes to confidence, but they represent less than 20% of people in America. Does that mean 80% of us don't deserve to feel good about ourselves?
Lisa Sun:And that's why we created the other 6, because we want to celebrate other routes to self belief. The next 2 are achieving and knowing. By the way, I don't have any of that, Danielle. Just to be clear, you never beat yourself up about the ones you don't have. This is I get things done, I have a winner's mindset, and I'm the smartest, most well researched person in the room.
Lisa Sun:I always say you wanna build IKEA furniture with the people who have these two qualities. The best example in pop culture would be the women from Hidden Figures. The 3 black women at NASA, what was their route to gravitas? They were the smartest women in the room. The next 2 are giving and believing.
Lisa Sun:I support others, I have optimism, positive intent, and if things don't work out, there's a reason for it. It's putting me on another path. The example I use is Ted Lasso. If you're a Ted Lasso fan, he was not a classic performing, leading, commander coach. His superpower was believing.
Lisa Sun:He actually said, I don't care about the wins and losses. I'm trying to make these men the best possible men they can be, whether or not we win or lose. And so I really want to celebrate that superpower, that set of superpowers, because those often get undervalued and underestimated in our culture, or women are taken for granted that they have to be the giver. And we need to celebrate it. My mom said when she looked at the data set, she said, oh, when tsunamis happen, men makes beaches, women clean up the beaches.
Lisa Sun:Okay. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for giving me credit for cleaning up the beach. And then the last 2 are creating and self sustaining. Creating is my number 1.
Lisa Sun:It is, you can, see the future and will it into existence. You create something from nothing, you're resourceful. And then self sustaining, which is one of the hardest ones, that's I like myself. I don't need to impress you. I deserve the seat at the table.
Lisa Sun:I know what I bring to the table as well. And that is the quality most needed to overcome criticism, objection, and ask for a raise. One of the cool things in the book is, like, to ask for a promotion is achieving, to ask for a raise is self sustaining. It means I know my market value and I'm willing to walk away. But together, these eight qualities create a more complete picture of confidence.
Lisa Sun:Most people have 2 or 3 qualities. As you climb the ladder, you build 4 or more. My mother took the quiz. She has all 8. 2% of our dataset have all 8.
Danielle Sprouls:I remember you saying so, which is funny. No. Actually, not funny when you describe her. I think that's inspiring, really, to have a mother because, you know, our lives are so influenced by our role models, and that really does start with our mother. Right?
Danielle Sprouls:Mhmm. And in your book too, you talk about mirroring what we witness, right, and how we can embody that. So it's so important. And that's why we, as women today, we really need to understand that it's both a privilege and a responsibility to show up and elevate other women as we I don't even wanna say climb that ladder just as we ascend into our greatness. Right?
Danielle Sprouls:There's room for everybody. You know, self sustaining, I I scored a 5. I I remember revisiting the question about not caring. I guess it wasn't it wasn't written like that, but about, you know, not putting so much value on what other people think of you. And I had a mentor that that told me a a while back, you know, Danielle, what people think of you is none of your business.
Danielle Sprouls:And I thought, well, that's kinda harsh and do I really believe it. But the truth of the matter is it really starts with what I believe in myself. If I can wake up and look at Danielle in the mirror and have respect for her, I have to look at what are my intentions, what are my choices. And if I'm okay with that, then that's just okay. And for the people that don't embrace that or, you know, what my vision is or or what it is I'm setting out to do, that not everybody is for everybody.
Danielle Sprouls:Right? And that, you know, as long as I'm okay with it, that's okay. So I I literally paused when I was like, do I circle this? Because I care, but it doesn't own me anymore. It used to, but it doesn't today.
Lisa Sun:Yeah. I would say that, obviously, feedback is a gift, and so we do care what people think of us if they're trying to help us improve or if they're correcting something that we could grow from. But if you tie your self worth and how much you like yourself to what others think, I think that's where we that's where we would say you've gotta you've gotta draw that line. So I have mentors. I have people who've really shaped me, who have their fingerprints on my story.
Lisa Sun:But whether or not they fundamentally like me, doesn't define how I like myself. And I think that's the line most people cross is they start to think, oh, this person and what they think of me, whether or not they like me, that defines how I see myself. And I think that's probably what your mentor or your coach was saying at the time is they can give you feedback.
Danielle Sprouls:No, it's an important distinction. I think, Lisa, probably, like my, perception of some of this is colored by the fact that I've been in sales all my life. Right? So, I you know, the younger version of me was really consumed by whether or not, you know, how successful I was Mhmm. Meant how much I was liked or how impactful I was.
Danielle Sprouls:Right? I was defining myself by the bottom line, which is utterly ridiculous. You know, as you mature and even just gain more strengths, it becomes clearer that that is not who you are or what you are. So when I say I don't, it's not that I don't care what other people think of me, but, you know, how successful I am in that given relationship, especially in a business setting. Yeah.
Danielle Sprouls:That is not what defines me. Right? It it's it's amazing.
Lisa Sun:Yeah. What I did an event a couple weeks ago with some folks came, that have known me since I was in my twenties. And someone raised their hand and said, I'm gonna call b s on this, you know, because I tell a story about being 22 and being told I didn't have gravitas. Now I've always thought of you as a very confident person. So I'm gonna call b s on that you've been on this journey, and I said, I was faking it.
Lisa Sun:I was deeply insecure.
Danielle Sprouls:Okay.
Lisa Sun:I didn't like myself very much in my twenties thirties, and I was told to perform and to fake it and to pretend to be confident, to basically do an act. And she said in response, Oh, that makes sense. That tracks. And I said, if I you know, you write the book, you most need to read yourself. If I could go back in time in sort of like a Back to the Future time machine and give my 22 year old self my own book, I would have really enjoyed the 11 years that I climbed the corporate ladder at McKinsey Moore, because I was an insecure overachiever who beat myself up, blamed myself, tied all of my self worth to the metrics given to me by corporate by the corporate environment.
Lisa Sun:But if I could go back and self soothe that 22 year old person, I would have said, we don't have to fake it. Let's do the work. Let's realize how much we're bringing to the table, not in an arrogant way, but in a way that means I don't need to tie how good I feel about myself to how others see me. It's about how you see yourself across.
Danielle Sprouls:Amazing, Lisa, because when you think about your accomplishments and the level of education at which, you know, you have achieved, you would just assume that you would be overly confident because on paper, you know, the evidence was, wow. Look at this rock star. Right? And and tell us a story. I know that, like, McKinsey and Company, were you interning there and then a a bunch of people weren't, you know, hired afterwards?
Danielle Sprouls:Because that is the case. It's a weeding out, and then you ended up staying. I mean, they're they're your track record was astounding, and still you didn't have the confidence.
Lisa Sun:I know. I mean, that's what I think and I and when I said this to someone who's known me since my twenties, they're like, oh, that makes sense, Right? That you were faking it. And I think that's what I mean by when we're told to be confident, it's usually an act or a behavior. It's not truly whether or not we like ourselves.
Lisa Sun:I think we as a society have essentially become what I call confidence culture. We've reduced confidence to an Instagram post, be a boss, hustle and sparkle today. And it undermines how hard it is to really work on yourself. The immense amount of work self love requires, and also all the barriers we face. But I'll tell you a story, and it's not necessarily about Mackenzie, but I'm I love my mother, but she is a tiger mom.
Lisa Sun:Okay? She was a tiger mom before tiger moms were a thing. When Amy Chua's book came out, she was like, see, she write a book about me. I was right. Mhmm.
Lisa Sun:You know? And I think what's hard about that philosophy is it definitely leads to achievement, and there's a root to it. Right? Immigrants who come here and sacrifice, having your kid go to an Ivy League school is a marker that your sacrifice was worth it, that you're not a dumb immigrant. There's all these things I can talk about, around why Tiger moms are the way they are.
Lisa Sun:But one of the things that about, is about the tiger mom approach is, you tie so much of your self worth to being the valedictorian, to being the overachiever. And if you don't get it, you beat yourself up. Even when you do get it, the bar keeps moving. And so, for example, I came home 1 year in high school with an a double plus in AP chemistry. And my mother said, you go you go ask the teacher what extra credit you can do to get a 3rd plus, a triple plus.
Lisa Sun:And I'm like, what? It's not good enough to come home with an a double plus? So I went to the AP chemistry teacher, and she goes, well, first of all, Lisa, that's just crazy. The computer system won't add a third plus. I will hand write one in and tell your mother I assigned extra credit, but I'm not gonna let you do any more extra credit.
Lisa Sun:Right? There's no extra credit left to assign. But if the bar keeps moving and, you know, I'm looking You did everything you did everything you could and you're still worthy whether or not that 3rd plus appears. So when I go back in time to a lot of the ways I felt in my twenties thirties, it was very much about looking for other people's approval. And what we realized ultimately is, once you leave college and there's no grading system, meritocracy is incredibly subjective.
Lisa Sun:And so, anytime I didn't make a milestone or hit a particular target to be promoted again, I beat myself up versus saying, hey, maybe the system's unfair. Maybe it's subjective. Maybe they don't understand me as a woman of color in this environment. You know, there's a lot of things at play, and I really wish I could have liked myself more during the process. Or taken an inventory and be like, you know what?
Lisa Sun:Even though that I didn't get this, here's all the ways in which I contributed. It is the thing that you started with, which is I never turned around to see how far I had come. I was the only business analyst in my class that was promoted to associate out of 12 people. You know, there's a lot of things that I could have celebrated, but I kept looking at the summit and kept tying my own self worth and happiness to the summit rather than the track.
Danielle Sprouls:You know, I I would say that, you know, we could easily think at 22, how evolved can we be? But I witness women, you know, much further along in life that still have this struggle. Right? So it's not necessarily a youth problem. Right?
Danielle Sprouls:And that's what the beauty of your book. It really, like, demystifies where our confidence lies. And, you know, the way that you break it down was enormously helpful to me, and I really appreciate it. One of the things when you talk about your mom though, and I know that you respect your mom, and I believe you dedicated the book to your mom. But, I mean, at some point, were you ever resentful of her pushing you to the extent that she did, even understanding that historically it's a cultural thing probably, and she was there to support you, and a lot of that helped.
Danielle Sprouls:But would would you do that to, you know, somebody that you were elevating or or raising? Or
Lisa Sun:Well, I was gonna say 2 things. 1 is I do you're you're right, by the way. The book applies to any stage of life you're in because we all experience setbacks, disappointments, and transitions. I actually I I always say the book comes when you most need it to come. Like, it's weird.
Lisa Sun:Like, a lot of people say, I really needed this today, or I really needed your book right at this moment. And when I ask them why, it could be and a lot of women in their, fifties and sixties, women in their fifties and sixties are the most powerful in our dataset, and they don't even know it because we've become ageist as a society. And so a lot of women read my book and they go, oh my gosh, I'm going to reinvent my whole last chapter of my career. And and 2 have, there's actually 2 women in the book that we follow. So you're right, it's it's actually for any stage of life you're in, we're all kind of needing that moment to reassess who we are, what we bring to the table, where we wanna go, how do we break out of comfort zones.
Lisa Sun:So I do wanna make sure I make that point. In terms of how I feel about my mom and all of these things, at the end of the day, I understand why she did it. I'll tell you a quick story, which is, when I got into Yale, my parents bought, they ran a Chinese restaurant in this tiny desert town. We're the only Asian family in a probably 30 to 50 mile radius. And my mom bought Yale Mom and Yale Dad T shirts.
Lisa Sun:And you could imagine how embarrassed I was in my teenage years that they wore it. And many a few years ago, I asked her why, because I have all these photos of yell mom, yell dad, they were in their restaurant. And she said, when I wear this t shirt, no one treats me like a dumb immigrant.
Danielle Sprouls:Oh.
Lisa Sun:Because you can imagine how many microaggressions they faced in the eighties nineties in Fontana, California, and it was armor. It was like, don't treat me like I'm dumb and don't speak your language, my daughter goes to Yale. And I didn't realize that until probably about 5 years ago. We were just having a conversation looking at photos and I was like, oh, I was so embarrassed. And she goes, let me explain to you why I wore that shirt.
Lisa Sun:And I said, oh, okay. I I just you just thank you for unlocking a childhood memory for me.
Danielle Sprouls:Did you know your I know. Did you know your grandparents? Were they, around? And was your grandmother very much like your mom?
Lisa Sun:My grandmother passed away when my mom was 12, so I didn't know my grandmother. But my grand Okay. My grandfather Taiwanese culture is very high achieving. I would say most Asian cultures have a self abasing, hardworking, ethic to them. So my mother went to the best women's college in Taiwan, Wood and Zao.
Lisa Sun:Where I was going with this is one of the things that when we had this conversation 5 years ago about the t shirts and and why she did it, There was this moment where she said, you know, I'm really proud of you. And and and the reason why she pushed me was she wanted to give me options she didn't have. I think that's a very classic immigrant parent feeling. And one of the things I gave her, we had this long conversation, is I said, I, I really wish that I had known that you loved me whether or not I won the award. And it's just not in our culture to just say I love you or hug you.
Lisa Sun:It's just not that kind of a culture. And I said, I only felt like you loved me when I came home with a trophy. And she said, oh my god, that's so not true. Right?
Danielle Sprouls:And, yeah, you you know fundamentally it's not, but
Lisa Sun:It's not true. And I think writing this book and having these deeper conversations with her has helped me understand why she raised me the way I did. I don't have kids, so who knows what would happen. I'm sure we're all some version of our parents in some way whether you're rejecting it or embracing their philosophy. So I'm not sure I could answer your question, Danielle, on whether or not I would repeat the same
Danielle Sprouls:Well, you you may not have children, biological children of your own, but what you do have is a following and you have a village of women that you can impact and you can help shape. So, you know, it's still very huge. Right? I mean, which leads me to let's talk about allyship. Let's talk about you know, our responsibility in supporting other women in sending the message or recreating the message.
Danielle Sprouls:Right? Because you're here to redefine confidence and you do it in such a beautiful way. And and your book is really based on a lot of data and research. This isn't like the, you know, personal opinion of Lisa's son. Mhmm.
Danielle Sprouls:She really spent a lot of time and studies to come up with this and articulate it in in a way that really demystifies the entire thing. It's very much a practical guide, your book. You know, it's easy to follow.
Lisa Sun:Well, you know, and a lot of men have actually written reviews on Amazon about the book, which has given me a lot of comfort. Oh, yes.
Danielle Sprouls:It's not just for women. Yeah.
Lisa Sun:And here's where I'll go, which is if you look at 2013 and you look at Girlboss and Lean In, Harvard Business Review said, we leaned in and the world pushed back. Because while you can create these concepts, you need to give people the tools and change the systems in which they operate for them to really be able to succeed. I think we're sitting in a moment with the Barbie movie monologue, Taylor Swift, Beyonce. We've created this moment of abundance where women can thrive, but we don't have the tools. And I I really think our book is a playbook for how to figure that out, because two things have to happen at the same time.
Lisa Sun:One, we actually have to change the metrics and scorecards by which we define success to include feminine attributes or include a more complete picture of confidence, and we have to level up to win. The first part is really important. Kelly Hsu, who's a professor at Yale, released a study last summer which we included in the book, 30,000 employee records. She looked at 30,000 employee records. And consistently, women were given the highest marks on performance, but the lowest on promotion potential.
Lisa Sun:Men had the lowest marks on performance, but were the most promotable. And when she double clicked on promoteability, it was extraversion charisma, which are the behavioral things. And she said, we can basically say definitively that the pay gap, 40% of it, which is correlated to promotion, is completely subjective. It's completely related to charisma and likability. It has nothing to do with actual performance.
Lisa Sun:And so when I looked at that result, I said, well, we've got to change the scorecard. We can't undermine that women bring achieving, giving, knowing, and believing to the table. We're the doers who give out the hugs and we face a triple standard, which is we have to be competent, confident, and warm. Take any one of those out and we're labeled or we're dismissed. And so, I really believe part of our book is a call to action to say, how does everyone, if you're really going to embody allyship, how do we reward behaviors or profiles of leadership that are different than ours and drive results?
Lisa Sun:I also want to eliminate the phrase be more confident. When you say to someone be more confident, it's anxiety inducing, it's ambiguous, you can say, which of these 8 strengths do you want me to be? Do you want me to be more performing? Okay, outspokenness. Do you need to be more self sustaining?
Lisa Sun:Okay, not take feedback personally. You know, we can change that conversation because guess what? If you say confidence, it's through my own lens. Right? It's like through the beholder's confidence language.
Danielle Sprouls:Which was coming into to my my heart right now is what a useful guide this is for any managers. Like, this needs to be, adopted and utilized by corporate culture. Okay? Because this would lead to a lot more understanding where it is that somebody can grow as an employee. Right?
Danielle Sprouls:This really breaks it down. So I don't know if you're, like, moving in that direction or promoting in that way, but how useful would that be? You know what I want you to talk about for a minute? The 3 c's. Okay?
Danielle Sprouls:Because you you know, yes. Let let's talk about that for a second.
Lisa Sun:So one of the things we found was there are 6 forces that hold us back from confidence, and they form the basis of an inner critic. Right? And so as a result, if you're an inner critic, that's where we get to compare and despair, envy. You know, you're scrolling through someone's Instagram account. You're like, oh, that's so annoying that they, you know, blah blah blah or LinkedIn.
Lisa Sun:And I always say, if you really like yourself, if you believe in an abundant philosophy, if you know what you bring to the table, if you have an inventory of your strengths and you feel stronger. By the way, things don't get easier, we get stronger. Right? If you have this growth oriented, confident, gravitas mindset, you can be more courageous, more connected, and more compassionate. So my 3 season life, these are the antidotes to envy, self doubt, and comparison are courage, compassion, and connection.
Lisa Sun:And the way I talk about it is courage, courage is self belief that leads to taking action and then evaluating the results of those actions not to beat yourself up, but to learn and do it all over again. And so to break out of your comfort zone, people say, you need to be courageous, you need to be brave. You can only be brave if you know what gas you have in the tank to take on the journey. So that's 1. Connected, when we see people for their strengths and not through our own stories and our own eyes.
Lisa Sun:We develop connections beyond demography. So my favorite example I use there is one of my bosses, we had no demographic connections. He grew up very privileged in the UK. His first question when he was interviewing me to be on one of his teams was, tell me a childhood memory that you're really proud of. And I told him about working in my parents' restaurant from the age of 8 on, and he said, great, I know who you are now.
Lisa Sun:And so that connection is different than where did you grow up? Where are you from? Where are you you know, those are loose connections that reinforce your own demography. And then compassion. So I think of it as self compassion, but also compassion for others.
Lisa Sun:Compassion is one of my favorite words because it's not just sympathy, it also has action. It's alleviating someone's distress, not just sitting inside their story with empathy, but also trying to do something about it. And when you think about your whole idea of looking back at how far we've come, that's where the source of compassion comes from. We do it to not beat ourselves up, because we do need self compassion, but also to see others through their own stories. So the 3 c's are my shorthand for ultimately going on a journey and reading this book and embracing the ideas of gravitas will give you courage, connection and compassion.
Lisa Sun:Those are the outcomes.
Danielle Sprouls:Yeah. No. I'd love how you break that down. You know, I wanna talk for a minute about how you decided to write a book and what that journey looked like. Did you have confidence that you would be able to execute this?
Danielle Sprouls:You know, you're I know you knew that you were intelligent enough, but, you know, you're very, very busy being the CEO of Gravitas and the clothing brand and all the work that goes into that and probably even resurrecting it post COVID, which really took a hit not only to your company, but to the world at large. Right? Because everybody stopped being operational. Where did you get the idea that you're gonna write a book? And just to encourage other women out there that have a message that they also want to, you know, put out into the world, what does that look like?
Danielle Sprouls:You know, did you have, relationships in that space that enabled you to expedite it or did you get into obstacles and, you know, what did that look like?
Lisa Sun:We started this process in 2018.
Danielle Sprouls:Oh, wow. Okay. That was a while ago.
Lisa Sun:Yeah. It's 5 years it's 5 years and I didn't want to rush it, But we started the process in 2018, and the inspiration was, you know, Danielle, you and I met in a dressing room, but not many women get to go to a conference, meet me, and have that experience. So we thought without buying a product or without meeting me at an event, how could you have this journey for 2699? Right? I mean, the original inspiration was, how do we give people gravitas without having them buy a product from us, you know, a $300 dress or or see us?
Lisa Sun:And so it really started as a tool to embody a lot of the things we believed. The other reason we did it is we wanted to shift the paradigm and the conversation around confidence. It's a 100 years exactly since when Dale Carnegie wrote How to Win Friends and Influence Other People. And I thought, wow, there needs to be a reset and a redefinition. And and and I love Dale Carnegie.
Lisa Sun:I read that book when I was 12, it changed my life. But we also need to expand on that narrative, and through Mhmm. A woman's voice, in my opinion. There aren't enough of these books written by women. So 2018, I interviewed 5 different literary agencies.
Lisa Sun:I ended up choosing an amazing literary agent. And then we brought on Catherine Huk, who is my collaborator on the book. She's got title credit for the book. And we wrote a proposal. You write an 80 page proposal.
Lisa Sun:It's super detailed around what you want the book to be, who you're marketing it to. You write 2 chapters as a sample. That took 2 years to get that proposal together. Also, because I was trying to figure out what the methodology would be. I didn't wanna just write a personal insights book or a memoir.
Lisa Sun:I really wanted to have academic and rigor plus applicability in personal and professional settings. So that took 2 years, then you go into an auction process where your agent presents the book to publishers. I have never been rejected more. I've never had a negative impact on rejection rate. And, we ended up getting we ended up getting a few offers.
Lisa Sun:You have an auction day, and you get the offers. And I ended up making a choice to work with Melody Guy at Hay House and Penguin Random House because Melody was the only woman of color I met during the process. And she shared her story with me around why there were not more women of color. It's because when you graduate from an Ivy League school, if you don't have parental support or trust, you can't afford to actually take a low salary and that's changed a lot now. That's changed now.
Lisa Sun:But I love this idea of working with someone who knew what it's like not to be seen and to go through that process of understanding the challenges.
Danielle Sprouls:It's it's a way of giving back, Lisa. Right? It's a way of giving back and, you know, not to exclude the other people that had the same, probably, talent and and ability to execute your plan. But, you know, you're identifying intentionally identifying where you can make an impact for somebody who probably needs it even more.
Lisa Sun:She changed my life. So that that took another year. That's another year of writing and editing and doing the research. And then it's another year of actually preparing marketing sales distribution book tour, publicist. I had an amazing publicist that we brought on board.
Lisa Sun:But it took 5 full years to get it to market. If you want to self publish, that's a totally different process. And in our instance, I'm really lucky that I had a team, my agent, my collaborator, my publisher, the sales force for the book. And what's fun is along the way, we got all these surprises. Like, Hudson News wants to carry your book for all airports as a featured new release, which I walk through the airport now, and you're like, oh my gosh.
Lisa Sun:There are not a lot of books on that table, and we're right there. So that's kind of exciting. And then a publicist, and then the book tour, you know, we're visiting 20 cities.
Danielle Sprouls:And the book tour is extensive. Right? And you're on the book tour right now. Aren't you in Miami? I mean, it continues.
Lisa Sun:We have 8 more cities to go.
Danielle Sprouls:You've been to what? North Carolina, Denver, Colorado, Washington, DC, Seattle, you're in Philadelphia, Miami. I mean, yeah, and then this isn't even over. I don't know how you're
Lisa Sun:keeping up with the pace. We've got 8 more cities.
Danielle Sprouls:8 more cities. And how do you choose which cities to visit? Because for a minute there, when I first saw this book tour, Irvine, California wasn't on it. And I was like, wait a minute. And I reached out to you and I said, are you coming?
Danielle Sprouls:You have to get your way to California. And then, you know, it did. It made its way on your schedule and I'm not gonna take credit for that. I mean, you have relationships out here but No.
Lisa Sun:No. No.
Danielle Sprouls:It's true. I was tickled. I was so happy to see it. Yes.
Lisa Sun:Well, it's it's interesting. We just we're about to add San Francisco. It's interesting, you know, you post the first few dates of the book tour, and then people direct message you and say, if you come, I'll bring out my company or my friends. Yeah. And so it's been very organic.
Lisa Sun:We chose 8 dates originally, and now it'll be 20 by the time we're done because it just snowballs. People are basically have written in and said, I heard that you were here and my friend loved it. Can you please come to San Francisco? Can you please And so, that's really what's happened along the way.
Danielle Sprouls:No. And you've been on news shows. I'm like seeing you, like, you know, in in in public forums that are like, Wow. Look at this. Lisa's on the news.
Danielle Sprouls:I mean, I was even surprised you were gonna come on podcast because, I thought, no, no, she's too big, she's too important. And you just so graciously, because you just lead with humility. You're just all about, you know, being humble and being loving and being giving. And I thought, you know, shame on you, Danielle. You thought that, like, you weren't important enough for her and that is not the message that she embodies.
Lisa Sun:I was like, that's the opposite.
Danielle Sprouls:Because I know, it is. And I got Well, no, it was a learning lesson for me in a second and I usually don't do that. But when you were gonna be in California, you're like, I'll do your podcast. And I thought, Oh, no, I don't have a fancy podcast studio. I do this like on Riverside.
Danielle Sprouls:On the computer and I'm wondering how I can make this all perfect. And I was like, that's not what this is about. And I knew it and you knew it. But it just reminds me. I have to comment your blouse.
Danielle Sprouls:Okay? That signature blouse of yours, which I own, in which I will tell you, I was doing a presentation. I don't know. I was at one of these conferences last year, and I wore that and people were coming up to me because it really I mean, you can tell it tells a story, like literally tells a story about woman equality and the right to vote. And I think it's what from the 19 tens or 19 twenties, and it is a signature blouse that I see you in often.
Danielle Sprouls:I love it. I own it. What can you tell us about that? And and just even, you know, what is your favorite piece of clothing?
Lisa Sun:Yeah. Well, you know, Gravitas is a fashion brand. Our mission is catalyze confidence. And I always say, we're not gonna own a 100% of your closet, but we will be the most valuable player in your closet. And that's actually our goal, is there's going to be probably 8 to 10 pieces in your closet that you're like, these are my MVPs.
Lisa Sun:Right? They're the ones that make me feel the best or they're a conversation starter or I feel so seen in these clothes. And it's not about how other people see you, it's I feel that I'm seeing myself. So
Danielle Sprouls:They're designed that way though too. I mean, Alicia, right, with the, like the built in shapewear and, just the lines of them, they're flattering. Yeah.
Lisa Sun:Mhmm. So the blouse that I have on is our Marvel blouse. It's our Women's Equality Day blouse. It's the day women got the right to vote. And we went into the national archives and pulled all of the articles from the day women got the right to vote.
Lisa Sun:The new version, which is the one I'm wearing now, includes women of color, because women of color couldn't vote until 1965. And so we've included women of color suffragists, we've included the 1965 Voting Rights Act. But people First of all, it looks like the Dior Galliano Sex in the City dress print. And then Balenciaga did it again a few, I think 2 years ago. And we kind of loved the fashion statement of newsprint.
Lisa Sun:But we said if we're gonna do a newsprint dress and a newsprint blouse, let's make it super meaningful. And that's so it's in honor of all the women's suffragists who came before us. It is a conversation starter though. People stop you.
Danielle Sprouls:Oh, it absolutely is. People were stopping me and talking. It's my favorite piece that now I have to get the updated version. You know, you you you you gave a quote on Instagram, you know, because I follow you on Instagram, and it says, clothes aren't going to change the world. The women who wear them are.
Danielle Sprouls:And that's by Anne Klein. And when I saw that, I thought, like, how impactful is that statement? And that really is you know, it's so aligned with your brand. Let me ask you this. For women that want to buy from you, but the online version, I mean, how do they know, you know, where to it'll be in the show notes, but what size they are without trying it on, I had the benefit of actually getting into those clothes.
Danielle Sprouls:And I was astonished by how transformative it felt, not only because you were in my ear reminding me who I was, but also because of how good they made me look. They are extremely flattering. I mean, you know, they're not they're not low cost items, but they are staples that are timeless. Do you get a lot of online orders or, you know, for people looking in?
Lisa Sun:So, so gravitas newyork.com is our website, and then, a lot of people will try something. It may not work out the first time. You can obviously return a change, but you can also email us at hello@gravitasnewyork dotcom. We do virtual fittings if we don't have an in person event. And so, I've done Mhmm.
Lisa Sun:With our team a number of Zoom fittings. In fact, some of the mortgage banking women that you know, their first interaction with me was I did virtual fittings during COVID.
Danielle Sprouls:Oh, really? Okay.
Lisa Sun:We sent them boxes of product to try. And what was really funny is when we went back in person, a lot of them came up to me in their clothes saying,
Danielle Sprouls:do you remember me? I was one
Lisa Sun:of your virtual fittings during COVID. And I said, oh, yeah. So there's a lot of ways that we support people who can't come to one of our activations.
Danielle Sprouls:And were are there with the tour being, you know, your focus right now and the launching of this book and getting the message out there, will there be any pop up closets at any upcoming conferences where we know we can see you?
Lisa Sun:Yes. So we're gonna announce a pop up tour for next year, and there are a lot of dates where we'll be crisscrossing the country. I need to get through this book tour first, and then we'll announce the Confidence Closet pop tour pop up tour.
Danielle Sprouls:Okay. Well, I'm gonna be looking for that, and I'm going to try to see how I could align my commercial real estate business with, whatever conference there is because I would just, I I would relish the opportunity to, see you again and to try on some of those clothes because they are gorgeous. Really, they really are. They're well made. And the intention behind them is just very powerful.
Danielle Sprouls:I thank you so much for coming on, Lisa. I know that you have another event, like, imminently, and you're in Miami. So I'm gonna let you go run and spread your your just your your kindness and your message and, I can't wait to continue to follow you and see all that you do.
Lisa Sun:Thank you for having me.
Danielle Sprouls:Before you go, I really wanna thank you for joining me today. I really do appreciate you. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to rate and review Unscripted Pivots on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps me improve and reach more listeners just like yourself. And remember to subscribe to stay updated on future episodes released every Wednesday morning.
Danielle Sprouls:I have more great content and stories from WTF women coming your way. Until then.
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